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Post by rich on Aug 5, 2016 9:01:01 GMT -5
Current requirements from the 7900.5C
APPENDIX J. AUTOMATED WEATHER SYSTEM OPERATION AND
BROADCAST
When automated weather systems are equipped with local broadcast capabilities the Air Traffic
Facility must ensure that weather information being broadcast on the Automated Terminal
Information Service (ATIS) and all other weather outlets are the same.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone
capabilities.
1. During hours of operation, towers that have ATIS capabilities and automated weather
system with broadcast capability shall:
a) Ensure the last transmitted METAR/SPECI weather sequence is broadcast on the ATIS
and all automated weather system communications outlets.
b) Ensure ASOS/AWOS ground to air radio weather communications are not
simultaneously broadcast with the ATIS.
c) Ensure that the Automated Lightning Detection and Reporting System (ALDARS) is
disabled.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone
capabilities.
2. During hours of non-operation, towers that have ATIS capabilities and automated
weather system with broadcast capability shall:
a) Ensure the one minute weather sequence is broadcast on all automated weather system
communications outlets; this includes any automated weather system with ATIS interface
capability.
b) Ensure that the ALDARS capability is enabled.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone
capabilities.
Changes proposed to 7900.5D
Changes to 7900.5D
Appendix J, Change from Appendix J to Appendix I added requirement for ALDARS operation
Appendix I. Automated Weather System Operation and Broadcast
When automated weather systems are equipped with local broadcast capabilities the Air Traffic Facility must ensure that weather information being broadcast on the Automated Terminal Information Service (ATIS) and all other weather outlets are the same.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone capabilities.
During hours of operation, towers that have ATIS capabilities and automated weather system with broadcast capability shall:
a) Ensure the last transmitted METAR/SPECI weather sequence is broadcast on the ATIS and all automated weather system communications outlets.
b) Ensure ASOS/AWOS ground to air radio weather communications are not simultaneously broadcast with the ATIS.
c) Ensure that the Automated Lightning Detection and Reporting System (ALDARS) capability is enabled.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone capabilities.
During hours of non-operation, towers that have ATIS capabilities and automated weather system with broadcast capability shall:
a) Ensure the 1 minute weather sequence is broadcast on all automated weather system communications outlets; this includes any automated weather system with ATIS interface capability.
b) Ensure that the ALDARS capability is enabled.
Note: Automated weather system communication outlets include all radio and telephone capabilities.
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Post by rich on Aug 5, 2016 9:10:28 GMT -5
Since the 7900.5D has not yet gone into effect we follow the 7900.5c.
The 7900.5c says: 1.8.b. Conflicting Information. In case of conflicting information, the procedures and practices in this order take precedence. However, any applicable FAA air traffic orders take precedence over any procedures or practices in this order that are in conflict. Such conflicts should be brought to the attention of the originator of this order.
Since no FAA Air Traffic Orders have been issued addressing the ALDARS situation the 7900.5C guidance would take precedence and ALDARS should be disabled.
1. During hours of operation, towers that have ATIS capabilities and automated weather
system with broadcast capability shall:
c) Ensure that the Automated Lightning Detection and Reporting System (ALDARS) is
disabled.
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Post by fractocu on Aug 5, 2016 9:46:21 GMT -5
Why is everyone making this so complicated and almost seeming to be in a panic.
It is very simple....any sensor that the observer deems to be inop. or reporting erroneous data needs to be backed up. Simply put, that is what we are doing.
When such a time comes that the 7900 is changed AND the requirements of a Service Level A & B designated station changes, that's when ALDARS will be handled differently.
From info. available, ALDARS can only detect 2 types of lightning: cloud to ground (at a supposedly greater than 95% efficiency) and cloud to cloud (at 50-60% efficiency). And, correct me if I am wrong, it needs two strikes to register. A thunderstorm should be reported when any of 4 types of lightning occur, even once, and thunder is heard (unless airport noise level is too high and thunder should have been heard).
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Post by Little Miss Sunshine on Aug 5, 2016 10:00:56 GMT -5
It is clear that most CWOs do not understand the governing manuals issued by FAA, and they do not understand how ALDARS works and how ASOS reports lightning data received from ALDARS. First off, an ASOS site staffed with a CWO or a LAWRS observer is NOT a manual station. It is an AUGMENTED station. See the definitions in 7900.5C paragraphs 2.2.b. and 2.2.c. With the introduction of ALDARS data to the ASOS, lightning information is now reported automatically when applicable. This is in accordance with 7900.5C paragraph 14.29.b. When ALDARS detects cloud-to-ground lightning within 5 nautical miles of the Airport Reference Point (ARP), this lightning is reported in the body of the report as TS with NO REMARK. This satisfies all regulatory requirements for reporting lightning within 5 nautical miles of the ARP. The CWO or LAWRS observer may, but are not required to, augment a remark describing the frequency and type(s) lightning observed within 5 nautical miles of the airport. The CWO should augment a remark describing the location and movement (if known) of the thunderstorm. When the ALDARS detects cloud-to-ground lightning between 5-10 nautical miles of the ARP, this lightning is reported in the body of the report as VCTS with NO REMARK. This satisfies all regulatory requirements for reporting lightning between 5-10 nautical miles of the ARP. The CWO or LAWRS observer may, but are not required to, augment a remark describing the frequency and type(s) of lightning observed between 5-10 nautical miles of the airport. The CWO should augment a remark describing the location and movement (if known) of the VCTS. When the ALDARS detects cloud-to-ground lightning between 10-30 nautical miles of the ARP, this lightning is reported in the remarks of the report as "LTG DSNT xx", where xx is the direction from the ARP. This satisfies all regulatory requirements for reporting lightning between 10-30 nautical miles of the airport. The CWO or LAWRS observer shall not turn off automated lightning remarks to replaced them with a manual lightning remark. It should be noted that TS and VCTS will not appear in the same observation. If ALDARS detects cloud-to-ground lightning between 0-5 nautical miles of the ARP, and 5-10 nautical miles of the ARP, the ASOS will report TS in the body of the observation. An example of an augmented observation for an automated system with SPECI capability with augmentation and ALDARS (that is, a CWO site) is provided in 7900.5C Table 5-2. As noted above, VCTS is allowed at CWO sites with ALDARS because these sites are AUGMENTED stations, NOT manual stations, as defined in 7900.5C. Begin/end times are NOT provided for VCTS. Begin/end times are only provided for weather phenomena occurring "at the station." VC means "in the vicinity" of the station. The National Lightning Detection Network (NLDN), from which the ALDARS gets lightning data, has a documented detection accuracy of cloud-to-ground lightning strikes within 200 meters in the contiguous United States, flash detection efficiency greater than 95%, and thunderstorm detection efficiency in excess of 99%, according to NWS, Vaisala, and 3rd party validation studies conducted by the University of Arizona and the University of Florida. The NWS has been using the very same lightning data provided by the NLDN that the ALDARS uses for over 20 years. The ALDARS is simply using the same lightning data for METAR/SPECI observations. There is nothing in the 7900.5C, or the memorandum regarding the ALDARS policy, that changes the standards prescribed in the FMH-1. Per the CWO Statement of Work (SOW), Part I, Section C, paragraph 3.1, "In addition to what is listed in Section 2.0 of this SOW, the contractor must take, document, and disseminate accurate and timely hourly METAR and SPECI weather reports at each location in accordance with FAA Order 7900.5, Surface Weather Observing-METAR, and other associated instructions as provided by the Government." The memorandum directing CWOs/LAWRSs to enable ALDARS service 24 hours per day is an example of "other associated instructions." Vendors who do not follow this policy are in violation of the terms of the contract, and are subject to penalties which may include decertification of observers, fines, or termination of contract. OMG !!! Will make sure my supervisor gets this asap
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Post by skobie on Aug 5, 2016 13:07:42 GMT -5
HA-HA LMS!
skobie
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 5, 2016 13:36:20 GMT -5
wow!! I must print that last bold faced comment about going to jail...and make sure my SWO gets in line...and with the program!! now...if you will excuse me...I have to go to my safe space now.
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 5, 2016 15:11:58 GMT -5
folks, even IF the FAA were to OFFICIALLY state that manual LTG/TS remarks at CWO's are NOT required but MAY be inserted...don't fall for this ruse. if CWO's were to let ALDARS handle ALL LTG/TS info...the FAA could come back at a later date and tell unsuspecting user groups that CWO's do not enhance what ALDARS does...and this would give them another excuse to try and dump us. As for me...I am going to continue to give as much detailed LTG/CB/TS info as possible.
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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 5, 2016 18:10:25 GMT -5
Is anyone as confused as I am now. SMH
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Post by coldairfunnel on Aug 5, 2016 18:39:54 GMT -5
Is anyone as confused as I am now. SMH Thoroughly...
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Post by alstein on Aug 5, 2016 20:21:55 GMT -5
WHy shouldn't we tell whoever it is to pound sand on this if they try to do it? THey're going to try shutting us down anyway- if they want to try it over not falsifying data- we'd win that one.
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aero0
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by aero0 on Aug 6, 2016 19:29:40 GMT -5
Having worked with the nws for 33 years I find KUKBLUE1's comments very strange. To me it sounds like a nws Electronic Tech who initially complained about ALDARS being turned off. I was told by the current ET at the time, "Wow you guys get to work with ALDARS"....something that sounds like the nws Electrician Classes in Kansas City were told to put out the word to make the observers want to work and I mean WORK with ALDARS, because they knew ALDARS had been reprogrammed many, many times to get to the present Poor state.
To me ALDARS is the worst program I have ever worked with. It is a SAFETY ISSUE. If a COR is sent, you have to wait several minutes for it to fianlly xmit, holding up Thunderstorm, or Freezing Rain SPECI's. As we all know the SPECI Often is more important that the previous COR. Somehow in this mess often here the Towers OID screen shows the Older observation as being current, which really is dangerous. I was told by a very experienced Observer that if a COR is sent after 44 minutes after the hour, it will often end up on the Towers OID as being the current weather, and not the METAR which is the current wx....
Other problems with this dubious program are:
1. No instructions were given in detail when ALDARS came out and progressed to its current sick state.
2. There are times when the beast must be shut down temporarily, like when nature calls, or when you go outside to take an observation which can be at least 3-4 minutes.
3. Aldars direction to the T storm are often poor, but do I dare change what the beast wants, it seems sometimes ALDARS is in a programed mode that doesn't want to be interfered with.
4. When taking an ob for VCTS or TS the Lighting must be turned OFF, but often it does not come back on after the ob is xmitted, making for another task the observer in a busy convective weather situation needs to be attentive to.
5. ALDARS T storm reporting is so poor it sometimes doesn't detect an obvious T storm coming in from far out and progressing past overhead and then when it finally recognized it as a T storm, calls it a VCTS, when it is absolutely positively a TS.
It is obvious that this very poor program should not be installed on ASOS. It is an Aviation most serious Safety issue that needs to be addressed to.
Please post other problems you have had with ALDARS. The Pilot organizations and the proper authorities need to be notified ASAP about this programs serious issues.
Who do we need to notify who won't sweep it under the rug?
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aero0
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by aero0 on Aug 6, 2016 19:34:09 GMT -5
Yes, but is ALDARS accurate. Not in all cases.
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Post by fractocu on Aug 6, 2016 20:42:53 GMT -5
It was posted earlier about having to let an ob. go out with both ALDARS and manually entered LTG and TS remarks. There is a way around that, if you insist on leaving ALDARS on. If you go to the AUTO remarks page, you should be able to just turn off the LTG remarks. After the ob. goes out, it will reset and the remarks will turn back on.
Also, someone mentioned having to wait a number of minutes to allow a SPECI to transmit. You can force transmit a SPECI so it goes out ASAP. You really should not wait the full 5 minute EDIT (or PENDING time).
Finally, we are responsible for the quality and accuracy of an observation. As long as we are following the 7900 and what's required for our service level, there should be no issues.
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sunny9
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by sunny9 on Aug 7, 2016 12:33:01 GMT -5
Re aero0's comments about an older COR showing up on the control tower's OID (and ATIS too) instead of the current SPECI - we have found that this happens if a COR is attempted while a SPECI is pending. Example: an error is found in the 1552Z METAR. At 1559Z the observer is editing the COR. A SPECI PENDING automatically starts at 1600Z. At 1601Z the observer is finished editing and hits XMT. Nothing seems to happen. At 1605Z ASOS sends the SPECI. The control tower gets it. Immediately after the SPECI is sent, ASOS sends the 1552Z COR. This overwrites the 1605Z SPECI at the tower and so they only see and can access the 1552Z COR. This has been a problem for a long time, before version 3.10. A fix - when you get into this situation, right after ASOS sends the COR, manually initiate a new SPECI so that the tower has current weather.
And a new problem that came with 3.10 - the early sending of a SPECI does not always work. If you execute the early transmission between 5 and 30 seconds past the minute, ASOS gets confused and mixes old and new data in the transmitted SPECI. If the early sending is executed between 35 and 59 seconds past the minute, it transmits properly every time.
All of these problems!
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 7, 2016 13:56:35 GMT -5
have never seen the problem you describe that ASOS mixes old and new data in the transmitted speci. local software glitch? if the edit mode is used to send a speci you get a 6 minute delay. not good generating a TS speci. we ALWAYS use the GENOB function to xmit a manually generated speci. it gets xmtd within a minute. we never use the edit mode. if ASOS generates a speci we use CMD-OBS-XMIT function to send it immediately and not let it sit for 6 minutes before xmitg
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