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Post by weatheri on Feb 26, 2020 7:54:14 GMT -5
This has been bothering me for a long time. Why can't the union negotiate a union wide benefits package; where all sites get the same benefits such as sick, personal, vacation, holiday, time and a half for anyone working a holiday, birthday off with pay, etc. I understand different localities receiving different pay and could be convinced that the H&W could be different for different regions as well. However, there should be a basic package for all sites.
At a time of prosperity, I find it incredulous that some sites actual lost benefits on the last contract "negotiations". Some of us have contractors who care for the entire workforce, but some are not so lucky. I viewed all the contracts published by the FAA in the last contract bid. WOW! There are some huge differences between sites.
Just sayin'.
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binovc
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by binovc on Feb 26, 2020 20:42:59 GMT -5
I've been asking PATCO that for years. They (in my opinion) can't even get a unified contract within just one contractor. Sure the base contract is the same, but pay and benefits range widely, and it is NOT based on locality.
I guess the main reasoning is that, however it works, the various contractors have to bid on groups of stations, and the low bidder wins.
If all the stations were treated fairly (like FAA-employed ATC represented by NATCA), there would be no need for contractors, and thus no bidding for the lowest that the contractors can get away with.
I for one would love to ditch the contractors and work directly for NWS or FAA, and have a union that actually had some clout!
With the current system I really can't blame PATCO for having no teeth, as we really have nothing to bargain with. Each station is pretty much an island of maybe 6 or 8 employees, and that's not much bargaining power.
Heck it would even be a step in the right direction if PATCO would allow or encourage all the stations in just one group to get together to work things out. But in my many years of steward experience, Jerry doesn't want any input from us at all. He says he does, but when I send him detailed letters of requests for change, and get nothing except a small pay/H&W increase, that tells the real story.
Was that a rant?!? Must have been, I feel better now.
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Post by hlsto2 on Mar 3, 2020 12:36:12 GMT -5
I've been asking PATCO that for years. They (in my opinion) can't even get a unified contract within just one contractor. Sure the base contract is the same, but pay and benefits range widely, and it is NOT based on locality. I guess the main reasoning is that, however it works, the various contractors have to bid on groups of stations, and the low bidder wins. If all the stations were treated fairly (like FAA-employed ATC represented by NATCA), there would be no need for contractors, and thus no bidding for the lowest that the contractors can get away with. I for one would love to ditch the contractors and work directly for NWS or FAA, and have a union that actually had some clout! With the current system I really can't blame PATCO for having no teeth, as we really have nothing to bargain with. Each station is pretty much an island of maybe 6 or 8 employees, and that's not much bargaining power. Heck it would even be a step in the right direction if PATCO would allow or encourage all the stations in just one group to get together to work things out. But in my many years of steward experience, Jerry doesn't want any input from us at all. He says he does, but when I send him detailed letters of requests for change, and get nothing except a small pay/H&W increase, that tells the real story. Was that a rant?!? Must have been, I feel better now. I had the same problem with jerry years ago when I was the local union steward. he would ask for input and when we sent him our wish list...we got ignored. he even made changes to our agreement we did not ask for and did not want. I finally got fed up with arguing with him and stepped down as steward. |
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Post by northwx on Mar 5, 2020 19:48:20 GMT -5
No problem with Jerry here. And yes folks, our locality and cost of living make a huge difference in what we've been able to negotiate. Most of the CBA doesn't change because it seems to work. All the contractors are required to tell the FAA that they "negotiated in good faith" - that means if you want 3%, ask for 4 or 5% - give the contractors some way of saying they negotiated down... The benefits that were "lost" happened because we asked for a lot with no room to bargain - most of that has been recovered. I suggest that when you send requests to Jerry that you not get too greedy and avoid novel new benefits.
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Post by weatheri on Mar 11, 2020 6:48:15 GMT -5
...not get too greedy and avoid novel new benefits. IMO, Sunday differential is not being greedy. At our airport, in addition to the holiday pay, the majority of workers receive double time for the holiday as pay, some at 1.5 times, few, like us, straight time to work a holiday. Don't see the novel idea of asking for time and half for working a holiday as being greedy. IMO, if the benefits package is mandatory for all contracts, you actually get a better bid on the contract. Contractors determine what percentage of profit they are willing to take and bid accordingly. Right now, the bids go in and the pay and benefit cuts follow to cover for the lower bid. |
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Post by northwx on Mar 11, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -5
...not get too greedy and avoid novel new benefits. IMO, Sunday differential is not being greedy. At our airport, in addition to the holiday pay, the majority of workers receive double time for the holiday as pay, some at 1.5 times, few, like us, straight time to work a holiday. Don't see the novel idea of asking for time and half for working a holiday as being greedy. IMO, if the benefits package is mandatory for all contracts, you actually get a better bid on the contract. Contractors determine what percentage of profit they are willing to take and bid accordingly. Right now, the bids go in and the pay and benefit cuts follow to cover for the lower bid. Weatheri, we already get Sunday differential, and those who work the holiday get paid for the hours worked plus the holiday pay based on the hours worked the week before. I don't know what most of the other union stations make, and the USDOL wage determination for non-union sites is ridiculously too low IMO. We enjoy a higher benefit rate based on our cost of living, based on the Alaska Geographic Differential Study. Jerry Tuso has restored the benefits to us that the Niemeisers negotiated away. I support local cost of living differences in the contracts. The contractors just have to work a little harder to calculate their bids - the current system works - if you are a contractor struggling with the math, you have my understanding but not my sympathy: $28/hr goes a lot further in Biloxi than it would anywhere in Alaska, likewise benefits. Health insurance is still unaffordable for us. Yesterday, I received in the snail mail notification from PATCO of our wages and bene starting 10/01/20 - observers got 2.8%, senior got 2.3% raises. As a SWO, I really don't want to hear the bellyaching from the troops fighting over who gets to work the holidays because they wind up being more lucrative - isn't double time (effectively) enough? If time and a half is instituted for holidays worked, the regular holiday pay will go away, and only those who work the holiday will get the benefit. Be careful what you ask for - the law of unintended consequences always applies. When I said "don't get too greedy" - I meant don't get ridiculous (the FAA is not going to allow us $100/hr...) or overly creative and complicated, but negotiate what you can - that's what collective bargaining is all about. |
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Post by northwx on Mar 11, 2020 14:58:49 GMT -5
I've been asking PATCO that for years. They (in my opinion) can't even get a unified contract within just one contractor. Sure the base contract is the same, but pay and benefits range widely, and it is NOT based on locality. I guess the main reasoning is that, however it works, the various contractors have to bid on groups of stations, and the low bidder wins. If all the stations were treated fairly (like FAA-employed ATC represented by NATCA), there would be no need for contractors, and thus no bidding for the lowest that the contractors can get away with. I for one would love to ditch the contractors and work directly for NWS or FAA, and have a union that actually had some clout! With the current system I really can't blame PATCO for having no teeth, as we really have nothing to bargain with. Each station is pretty much an island of maybe 6 or 8 employees, and that's not much bargaining power. Heck it would even be a step in the right direction if PATCO would allow or encourage all the stations in just one group to get together to work things out. But in my many years of steward experience, Jerry doesn't want any input from us at all. He says he does, but when I send him detailed letters of requests for change, and get nothing except a small pay/H&W increase, that tells the real story. Was that a rant?!? Must have been, I feel better now. Binovc, in my 24 years experience, with 3 unions - currently PATCO for more than 10 years, the contractors demand the same CBA apply to all their sites - only the wages and benefits are different from site to site. PATCO's only threat capability - of striking - would apply to all union sites that work for the offending contractor. The strength of our union is much less the possibility of being able to force the contractor's hand than it is following the laws regarding collective bargaining - there is quite a large case history in the courts for this, much of it favoring the unions. Bottom line - we don't have to threaten to get most of what we want. Jerry listens, but he has to negotiate with the contractors, who likely don't want major changes in process - that's why "all we get is small raises in pay/H&W". I for one am very glad I don't work directly for the govt. I agree that stations within a grouping could work together - is there anything stopping us? If you want something new, try getting all the PATCO stations to agree on it - then take it to Jerry and let him negotiate it. The man is remarkably effective if we are all backing him and he knows we are together backing him. Your rant Binovc, was worth airing - thank you. |
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Post by weatheri on Mar 14, 2020 9:47:47 GMT -5
I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest and who is right and who is wrong and what we should or should not have. I was only giving examples.
With that said, I believe Sunday differential and at least 1.5 wages for working a holiday is more in line with other workers in the private sector.
"we already get Sunday differential"
Some sites are NOT receiving Sunday differential for employees.
"isn't double time (effectively) enough?"
We do not get double time. We get a paid holiday and sometimes not even 8 hours of holiday pay.
Example is for full time employee at station KXXX
If you work M-F and the holiday is on Monday, you exercise your choice to take the holiday off as paid holiday - you receive 32 hours wages and 6.4 hours holiday pay. (hmmm not even 8 hours for your paid holiday)
If you work M-F and the holiday is on Monday, you work the holiday - you receive 40 hours pay + 8 hours of holiday pay. (note no extra pay for working holiday)
If you work Su-Sa and the holiday is on Monday, you do not work the holiday - you receive 40 hours pay + 8 hours of holiday pay. (note did not work holiday pay is same for full time person who did work holiday, nothing extra for working the holiday)
As you can see the person working the holiday is receiving straight time for working the holiday, not double time.
Same for the par time personnel - this example is for working only one day a week to make it easier to see.
Holiday is Monday.
Take the holiday off and work no other day. You receive 0 hours wages and 0 hours holiday pay. (you received your pro rated amount 0 for your paid holiday)
Work 8 hours on the holiday. You receive 8 hours plus 1.6 hours holiday pay. You worked the holiday at straight time and receive your paid holiday pro rated amount.
Work 8 hours on Saturday. You receive 8 hours pay plus 1.6 hours holiday pay. You did not work the holiday and received your paid holiday pro rated amount.
I'm just saying that whatever is negotiated on the benefits side, whatever they are, should be the same throughout the program. So when the next contractor roles in you do not take a cut in pay because they do not offer the same benefits as the current contractor.
Contractors are trying to make a buck. To get the award you have to be the lowest bidder. I get that, I have no problem with that. It is what it is and the nature of the bidding process. I'm just saying if the benefits were the same you would not have to worry about a possible pay cut when a new contractor gets your site.
Regards.
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Post by northwx on Mar 16, 2020 13:07:52 GMT -5
Roger the not want to start pissing... Some sites not receive Sunday diff? I find that very strange - Sun diff used to be part of the USDOL package and even non-union sites got it. Yes, the union can negotiate that away, but shouldn't. Our CBA says you get paid holiday pro-rated on the hours worked the week before the holiday - If you work 32 hours the week before, you get 6.4 holiday whether you work the holiday or not, plus if you work the holiday, you get the normal pay for that day plus the pro-rated holiday hours. No more than 8 hours of holiday pay are ever paid for one employee. This arrangement means the contractor only pays out 33.6 hours of holiday pay for the site if you are open 24/7 - and admin days add to this.
Our CBA has a successor clause - any change in contractor for our site and the new guy still has to abide by our CBA. The wages and 401(k) amount vary per site, but all other benefits are the same throughout the CBAs with the same contractor. I do not fear loss of anything with contract change, though I hear that some contractors are more generous than others and some you would rather not work for. Don't let any of them blow smoke at you.
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Post by snowwx on Mar 17, 2020 1:04:26 GMT -5
Before our site finally went with patco...we had no sunday diff...the FT workers were forced to only work 39 hrs per week if they had to work sunday, hence negating the sunday diff rule of 40 hrs...our SWO was so anti union, pro contractor he would try everything to cut payroll expenses...they would even get away with not paying full holiday pay because lets say the FT employee was on leave and the vacation day he wouldnt calculated into hours for the holiday calculation...so basically you got screwed on holiday if it fell while you were gone on leave...we were screwed out of sunday diff from 1996-2019...finally the SWO retired out and got out of the picture and we are still trying to right the wrongs...
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Post by northwx on Mar 17, 2020 16:46:29 GMT -5
Before our site finally went with patco...we had no sunday diff...the FT workers were forced to only work 39 hrs per week if they had to work sunday, hence negating the sunday diff rule of 40 hrs...our SWO was so anti union, pro contractor he would try everything to cut payroll expenses...they would even get away with not paying full holiday pay because lets say the FT employee was on leave and the vacation day he wouldnt calculated into hours for the holiday calculation...so basically you got screwed on holiday if it fell while you were gone on leave...we were screwed out of sunday diff from 1996-2019...finally the SWO retired out and got out of the picture and we are still trying to right the wrongs... I would have wanted to sue that SOB... and the contractor if it was being forced on the station - but I don't worry about that with our CBA. Sunday workers get paid Sunday diff regardless of how many hours they work. This has been the same procedure here for 24 years. One of our contractors tried to be cheap that way, but the union straightened him out - then he wanted me to buy all the office supplies at my expense... That didn't last either. So my sympathies with your struggles - but with that one exception, our contractors have been great to work with and cooperative within the CBA. I appreciate PATCO because they are unobtrusive and easy to work with (in my experience). |
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Post by scoobydoo on Apr 26, 2020 16:03:46 GMT -5
Before our site finally went with patco...we had no sunday diff...the FT workers were forced to only work 39 hrs per week if they had to work sunday, hence negating the sunday diff rule of 40 hrs...our SWO was so anti union, pro contractor he would try everything to cut payroll expenses...they would even get away with not paying full holiday pay because lets say the FT employee was on leave and the vacation day he wouldnt calculated into hours for the holiday calculation...so basically you got screwed on holiday if it fell while you were gone on leave...we were screwed out of sunday diff from 1996-2019...finally the SWO retired out and got out of the picture and we are still trying to right the wrongs... I would have wanted to sue that SOB... and the contractor if it was being forced on the station - but I don't worry about that with our CBA. Sunday workers get paid Sunday diff regardless of how many hours they work. This has been the same procedure here for 24 years. One of our contractors tried to be cheap that way, but the union straightened him out - then he wanted me to buy all the office supplies at my expense... That didn't last either. So my sympathies with your struggles - but with that one exception, our contractors have been great to work with and cooperative within the CBA. I appreciate PATCO because they are unobtrusive and easy to work with (in my experience). Sorry to hijack the thread but I can verify at least at one location held by Ibex Wx Inc where the employees no longer receive Sunday Diff. Been that way for about 2 years now. Happened under the Neimeisers without knowledge or consent from the site employees. Again, I can say that with 100 percent certainty, and I HATE saying that, but this is true. I personally wish the job would be converted to a GS position. Health benefits, pension, medical, matching 401k (TSP), sick and personal leave. No limit on sick, 240 for personal. Not saying there arent cons, but sure are lot of pros. Lol. Anyways in regards to the medical benefits, the union has tried but it is difficult as previously stated by each places different CBA. Then add in the site managers input for each site which will be different and all we get is just a small bump in pay. Not bad, but could be much worse. |
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Post by skobie on Apr 26, 2020 21:14:13 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
Holiday Pay should be calculated on the hours you work the week before the Holiday and I don't believe that's a negotiable item, regardless. So if you work 40 hours sometime between Monday 00 and Sunday 24, then you should receive 8 hours of Holiday Pay for any Holiday that falls during that next week Monday 00 - Sunday 24 and generally it's pro-rated for Part-timers, so in total a contractor will pay out 33.6 hrs of Holiday Pay based on the 168 station hours the week previous to the Holiday or every station hour worked the week before the Holiday is worth 0.2 hrs Holiday Pay to whomever works it. The idea is that a Full-timer can take off a holiday and still get their 8 hours of pay for the Holiday without being docked or have to use Personal/Sick/Vacation time.
I do understand that some want time-and-a-half on Holidays, regardless of the additional Holiday Pay that you get anyway. Many public and private sector hourly employees that work in jobs that require them to work Holidays do get time-and-a-half for working on the actual Holiday (plus Holiday Pay) and some even get double-time for working on Holidays! And certainly in our jobs where mostly Part-timers are going to fill in on holidays to give the Full-timers a break (and probably aren't getting much Holiday Pay because of the lack of hours they're generally going to be scheduled the week before a Holiday) one can understand some incentive needed to want to work on a Holiday. Certainly you have to pick and choose your battles, but it doesn't hurt to ask if that's what your station wants (and who wouldn't?!).
Just my thought and I hope everyone is staying safe, clean, and healthy because of it,
skobie
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Post by fractocu on Apr 27, 2020 9:41:09 GMT -5
Our Holiday pay is based on what you work the week of the Holiday, not the week before. I am a full timer and I think that is the fairest way. I want to make sure that if I take off a Holiday, the person who works for me has the incentive to work. If they did not work the week before, and they get zero Holiday Pay, where is the compensation/fairness in that? If I take a Holiday off, I appreciate someone filling in...and it should not be a struggle to find coverage.
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Post by alstein on Apr 27, 2020 12:11:32 GMT -5
Here it's based on hours worked + vacation hours used (not personal/sick)
I do wish we had one national contract for benefits. Not gonna happen though.
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