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Post by snowwx on Apr 8, 2014 23:24:42 GMT -5
Our micro management contractor will ding us for error for a movement on distant stuff…until such a time the contractor, that wants to ding us for everything six ways to sunday…we are not to report movement on distant stuff…in my book a movement is good info, especially to us pilots…but until such a time these contractors quick screwing with observers( i won't name names yet)…we at our office will have to do what they want…even though, the head honcho has no experience in observations...
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Post by toofarnorth on Apr 9, 2014 12:36:12 GMT -5
Show me where in 7900.5c we can't report movement for CB or TS DSNT please... I believe your contractor is in error calling this an error. At our station, reporting this is important - we are outside the range of NEXRAD...
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Post by tornado on Apr 10, 2014 10:28:25 GMT -5
Show me where in 7900.5c we can't report movement for CB or TS DSNT please... I believe the opposite is true. For example, paragraph 14-18 on page 109, has a subsection which reads: If an observer knows the movement of a DSNT CB, the above clause says to go ahead and code it. Page 112 has the actual format for coding thunderstorms: The above instructions say to include the movement, if known. Now, if the FAA didn't want observers to report movement with DSNT CBs or TS, it would have included soemthing like, "Omit movement for DSNT phenomena"- but they didn't. The problem stems from 2 exmaples given on page 112: Since TS DSNT NW omits a movement, some contractors interpret that to mean movement is to be omitted. But the TS DSNT example refers to the LOC part of the format, and not the MOV DIR part. The next sentence on page 112 makes this clear: If the observer determines that movement information is appropriate, it cannot be an error. |
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Post by hlsto2 on Apr 10, 2014 11:55:34 GMT -5
some contractors are weather dumb and just good at winning contracts. 7900 unfortunately shows no examples of CB DSNT SE MOV E...just CB DSNT SE.
If you think about it, it could be dangerous NOT to carry movement of DSNT CB if you know it. For example, line of CB 60 miles SW-NW of the station...Line movement se at 20 mph. If you KNOW from radar that the line is moving SE and will likely impact the airport...and you report the line moving se...this gives airport interests, pilots, atct, etc several hours of warning. If as one contractor says, do not give movement unless within 10 miles...then when the line is within 10 miles, you can then report movement...you have given the airport only one half hour of warning.
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Post by toofarnorth on Apr 10, 2014 14:31:33 GMT -5
I believe we should all take the maximalist approach - report as much as possible within system parameters to give the aviation and meteorological communities the greatest amount of information... in other words, if 7900.5c doesn't specifically prohibit it and your ASOS/AWOS will take it, REPORT IT. This could be a safety issue.
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Post by kukblue1 on Apr 16, 2014 16:53:48 GMT -5
what if you have thunderstorm in two different locations. One is too the east about 9 miles away and one is s-sw but only 3 miles away. In remarks do you still go TS E and S-SW since that is the correct order or could u go S-SW and E since the storm S was closer? Also if it's OHD and N is TS OHD-N correct or N-OHD. I would image OHD would always come first.
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Post by toofarnorth on Apr 17, 2014 17:16:48 GMT -5
Report phenomena clockwise starting at north, regardless of distance... so in your example above the remark would be: TS VC E AND S-SW MOV __. The proximity qualifier carries through with the dash but otherwise must be repeated. TS OHD-N MOV __ is correct.
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Post by tornado on Jun 14, 2014 9:11:18 GMT -5
SPECI KIAG 131632Z 21013KT 9SM -TSRA SCT020 BKN035CB OVC065
22/18 A2976 RMK AO2 RAB32 TSB20 OCNL LTGCG 6NE
TS N-OHD-S MOV E P0000 T02220178
There's an example of lightning and thunderstorm locations not matching.
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Post by tornado on Sept 19, 2014 15:34:00 GMT -5
I looked at GSP (Greenville-Spartanburg, South Carolina) since they are listed in the industry report as NWS-WFO taking the obs.
Twice this week, they had TS and LTG remarks in differing locations:
METAR KGSP 162153Z 9SM -TSRA BKN050 25/21 A2996 RMK AO2 LTG
DSNT W AND NW RAB47 TSB35 SLP133 FRQ LTGCG N TS
NW MOV SE P0000 T02500206
SPECI KGSP 162226Z 16007KT 6SM TSRA BR BKN016 OVC039 21/19
A2997 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT S AND SW OCNL LTGCG SW
TS S MOV SE P0037 T02060194
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Post by alstein on Sept 20, 2014 1:03:56 GMT -5
A slight variation like that to me can happen, lightning can occur away from a TS. I wouldn't have issues with that.
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Post by weatheri on Sept 20, 2014 4:00:02 GMT -5
One is too the east about 9 miles away and one is s-sw but only 3 miles away.
3 miles away is within 5SM and therefore at the station, so OHD (" the location of phenomena within 5 statute miles of the point of observation must be reported as occurring at the station. 14.18 b. (3))
9 miles away is VC followed by the eight points of the compass
TS OHD AND VC E
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Post by hlsto2 on Sept 20, 2014 11:00:51 GMT -5
that paragraph is poorly written. plus in the example at 14.32.b. ts ne of the stn mov ne...is coded TS SE MOV NE...NOT TS OHD MOV NE. using the flawed reasoning everything within 5 miles would be reported as OHD. how about a funnel 4e moving e. Funnel Cloud OHD?
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Post by weatheri on Sept 21, 2014 1:47:48 GMT -5
that paragraph is poorly written. plus in the example at 14.32.b. ts ne of the stn mov ne...is coded TS SE MOV NE...NOT TS OHD MOV NE. using the flawed reasoning everything within 5 miles would be reported as OHD. how about a funnel 4e moving e. Funnel Cloud OHD? Of course not, there are rules for FUNNEL CLOUD. FUNNEL CLOUD 4 E MOV E The examples do not match the verbiage throughout 7900.5C. I contend it is the examples that are poorly written. Within 5SM is OHD. The protocols go into place at the airport by proximity. That is the reason for the SPECI for a TS within 5SM (moving within 5SM or moving outside 5SM). If you define OHD as directly over your head only, you could never report LTGCG OHD. |
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coco
Full Member
Posts: 111
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Post by coco on Sept 21, 2014 9:09:24 GMT -5
I've always been under the assumption that "OHD" meant "over or in close proximity of the airport", not over my head. In that case we would be no better than ASOS, which, someone recently said it's like looking up through a straw....or something to that affect. Of course, when I was being trained over 30 years ago, my trainer told me "if it ain't raining on your head, it ain't raining". I never agreed and still don't agree with that either.....just my 2 cents....
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Post by hlsto2 on Sept 21, 2014 10:23:34 GMT -5
of course you can have LTGCG OHD. much of the manual is poorly written and I think where it states within 5 miles is considered at the airport is wrong. otherwise it would say instead of LOC it would say OHD unless in the vicinity or distant. and I think most CWO's agree as I see them reporting for example: TS SE MOV E...page 23...TS remarks...TS SE MOV NE...NOT TS OHD MOV NE. several more incorrect instructions...14.21.b. second sentence. page 161 at the top...contraction for moderate drizzle is listed as Drizzle...instead of DZ. page 162...example 5 states no intensity ever assigned to snow pellets...however...10.13 states that intensity WILL be assigned to snow pellets. there are NO current requirements in 7900 for a speci to be taken when a TS moves within or outside of 5 miles. ALDARS does this...but nobody in their right mind would use ALDARS when storms are within 10 miles.
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