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Post by alstein on Aug 12, 2016 11:17:23 GMT -5
If VCTS is reported, the lightning should be VC not DSNT. VCTS= error due to this.
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Post by skobie on Aug 12, 2016 11:41:30 GMT -5
Well of course that's true Einstein (Alstein, sorry I couldn't resist!). I don't like the whole TS distance/location matches the LTG distance/location, but we have to be consistent in reporting so we can't do both, particularly because ALDARS says so. But my point is, amongst other points, that a VCTS shouldn't be reported in the first place because it looks like no one is augmenting/backing up the ASOS (and you will get burned by ALDARS from experience as hlstn has warned many times). To overstate the obvious: If a TS is 5-10 miles from station (and thunder is almost surely audible from my experience), then we report a TS in body (CB attached to a cloud layer too of course, which opens up a whole other can of worms with ALDARS and its' VCTS) and then the ASOS automatically puts in start time for TS and we augment LTG VC and TS VC for distance from station. Why would we ever use VCTS, not to mention now it's an official TS?
skobie
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 12, 2016 11:53:18 GMT -5
as most of us know...ALDARS only reports LTG in remarks when ltg is 10-30 miles from site. LTG 5-10 ALDARS reports VCTS in present wx. LTG 0-5...ALDARS reports TS. the confusing thing is ALDARS may still detect dsnt ltg while reporting TS in present wx as it also detects ltg 0-5 miles from ap. so you might get TS in present wx along with LTG DSNT N in remarks. in this case ALDARS may detect a stroke 3 miles from ap..TS in present wx and a stroke 25 miles from ap...LTG DSNT N in remarks. TS and DSNT LTG not associated with each other. and because the FAA has stated in the contract that ALL CWO's will perform at the service level A level...FRQ LTGICCG SW-NW TS SW-NW MOV E. ALDARS in this case...TS in present wx...NOTHING in remarks. oh...wait...TSB41. technically ALDARS is NEVER representative for CWO requirements as we cannot have a manual remark: LTG DSNT N. valid CWO remarks: OCNL LTGIC DSNT N CB DSNT N MOV E or OCNL LTG DSNT N CB DSNT N MOV E
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Post by vortlobes on Aug 18, 2016 20:27:03 GMT -5
If I had to pick the worst Weather Program ever written ALDARS would take the cake! It is a SAFETY HAZARD TO AVIATION, but apparently some people don't realize this because of their lack of experience in Weather. Such as NWS vs FAA publications.
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Post by alstein on Aug 19, 2016 12:33:19 GMT -5
I've seen ALDARS kick in well over 30 miles, as well as false signals.
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Post by toofarnorth on Aug 23, 2016 17:43:56 GMT -5
Clueless Joe made a decision... FAA is convinced ALDARS works and is accurate... How many people have to die... Sorry folks, we're stuck with this junk and ...no degradation of service. And the memo says we can't use info from other websites
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 23, 2016 19:59:28 GMT -5
7900 says we can use ANY source...but...guess I will have to cancel my subscription to weathertap
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Post by skobie on Aug 23, 2016 21:15:53 GMT -5
Actually, I think it's Clueless Ken and Joe.
skobie
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Post by fractocu on Aug 23, 2016 22:10:29 GMT -5
7900 says we can use ANY source...but...guess I will have to cancel my subscription to weathertap Not sure which version of 7900 you use, but, I've never seen "ANY source" listed. Specifically, the 7900 states: 10.29. Beginning and/or Ending of a Thunderstorm . A thunderstorm is considered to begin at the station when thunder is heard, overhead lightning is observed and the local noise level is such as might prevent hearing thunder, or lightning is detected by an automated sensor within 10 miles of the airport. A thunderstorm is considered to have ended 15 minutes after the last occurrence of any of the above criteria. When the time of beginning or ending of a thunderstorm is reported in the remarks section of a SPECI observation, it need not be reported again until the next transmitted METAR observation if not previously reported in a METAR observation. If previously reported in a METAR observation, the time need not be reported again It's fine if you want to use radar/computer info. as a help to see what is approaching and be prepared for it (a more intense weatherwatch), and hopefully that's what you meant. I've always treated observing as what I observe (actually see/hear) happening. While I do not think the FAA is handling the ALDARS issue properly (see the 2 memos...one says to backup ALDARS if unrepresentative [2013], the other says to leave it on all the time!!), we should be only using the sources defined in the 7900. By the way, isn't the FAA is trying to redefine how we reporting thunderstorms? If so, don't they meed more than just a memo??!!
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Post by rich on Aug 23, 2016 22:48:01 GMT -5
By the way, isn't the FAA is trying to redefine how we reporting thunderstorms? If so, don't they meed more than just a memo??!! Yes and Yes. They are attempting to combine manual and ALDARS reporting procedures due to the fact that ALDARS is not capable of meeting A or B Service Level reporting requirements. The 7900 gives two examples of reporting LTG...manual and ALDARS. Their are no examples or mentions of a combination of the two in the 7900.
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Post by rich on Aug 23, 2016 23:17:50 GMT -5
In fact the draft version of the 7900.5D also shows two examples of reporting LTG which are verbatim from the 7900.5C. It's almost as if they came up with this idea of combining the two procedures in the past couple of weeks when they finally realized that ALDARS does not meet A or B Level requirements for reporting LTG. From the 7900 b. When lightning is detected by an automated weather observing system with ALDARS: (1) Within 5 nautical miles of the Airport Reference Point (ARP), it will be reported as "TS" in the body of the report with no remark; (2) Between 5 and 10 miles of the ARP, it will be reported as "VCTS" in the body of the report with no remark; From the memo • At Service Level A and B locations, if ALDARS does not include lightning remarks and the observer physically sees lightning, the observer must add lightning remarksALDARS will never include lightning remarks for lightning within 10 miles of the station.
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 24, 2016 0:55:25 GMT -5
Actually, I think it's Clueless Ken and Joe. skobie no...no...ken and barbie
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 24, 2016 1:08:02 GMT -5
fractured cu...I was referring to 7900.5C...what version did you think I would use?? page 16, section 3.4.d. is what I was quoting from. you do not have to post entire sections from 7900 for me.
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 25, 2016 0:59:23 GMT -5
ALDARS goes missing...TSNO...at 0515...with tstms within 30 miles of the ap. so not even a DSNT LTG remark. FAA says ALDARS is accurate...even when it goes belly up?
KCOU 250515Z AUTO 31019G31KT 10SM FEW020 BKN033 24/19 A3009 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/0504 WSHFT 0455 T02390194 TSNO KCOU 250454Z AUTO 23009KT 10SM CLR 27/23 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP165 T02670233 KCOU 250354Z AUTO 18009KT 10SM FEW070 27/24 A3001 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT N AND NW SLP153 T02720239
ALDARS comes back online well after the strong winds hit the AP...with those all important DSNT LTG remarks.
KCOU 250554Z AUTO 32006KT 10SM FEW038 BKN060 22/19 A3009 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/0504 WSHFT 0455 LTG DSNT N AND NE SLP179 T02170194 10300 20217 403220217 53031
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Post by tornado on Aug 25, 2016 10:11:15 GMT -5
ALDARS goes missing...TSNO...at 0515...with tstms within 30 miles of the ap. so not even a DSNT LTG remark. FAA says ALDARS is accurate...even when it goes belly up? KCOU 250515Z AUTO 31019G31KT 10SM FEW020 BKN033 24/19 A3009 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/0504 WSHFT 0455 T02390194 TSNO KCOU 250454Z AUTO 23009KT 10SM CLR 27/23 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP165 T02670233 KCOU 250354Z AUTO 18009KT 10SM FEW070 27/24 A3001 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT N AND NW SLP153 T02720239 ALDARS comes back online well after the strong winds hit the AP...with those all important DSNT LTG remarks. KCOU 250554Z AUTO 32006KT 10SM FEW038 BKN060 22/19 A3009 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/0504 WSHFT 0455 LTG DSNT N AND NE SLP179 T02170194 10300 20217 403220217 53031 Something similar happened at Ohio State Airport in Columbus:SPECI KOSU 250501Z AUTO 24026G36KT 1 3/4SM +TSRA BR SCT024 BKN036 OVC090 24/23 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 24036/0500 VIS 3/4V5 LTG DSNT SW-N TSE0455 PRESRR P0010 T02440228 SPECI KOSU 250511Z AUTO 25015G26KT 1 1/4SM +RA BR BKN027 BKN036 OVC075 23/22 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 24036/0500 TSE0455E11 P0029 T02280217 SPECI KOSU 250519Z AUTO 23015G21KT 1 3/4SM +RA BR FEW021 BKN038 OVC100 23/22 A3005 RMK AO2 PK WND 24036/0500 TSE0455E11 P0037 T02280217 TSNOSPECI KOSU 250522Z AUTO 23014G21KT 2SM +TSRA BR FEW021 BKN038 OVC090 22/22 A3006 RMK AO2 PK WND 24036/0500 VIS 1/2V5 LTG DSNT E AND SW TSE0455E11 P0038 T02220217 The thunderstorm ended and restarted, because ALDARS went offline for awhile.
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