auto
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by auto on Sept 4, 2020 18:38:09 GMT -5
I kinda agree with that except why report a TS when u dont hear thunder? I bet the ob u are referring to where it was TS in present weather with VCTS rmks was one where the ALDARS switched it at the last second and the observer did not have time to change it. I strongly feel that the reason for all this confusion is to give legitimacy to ALDARS so the powers that be can say "NO DEGREDATION OF SERVICE" when they try yet again to get rid of us. 042038Z 26008KT 10SM TS SCT060CB OVC340 34/22 A3001 RMK AO2 TSE28B37 OCNL LTGIC VC NW TS VC NW T03440222 042038Z 26008KT 10SM TS SCT060CB OVC340 34/22 A3001 RMK AO2 TSE28B37 OCNL LTGIC VC NW TS VC NW T03440222 Today so the Observer changed it to TS the metar was the same also. Would this be counted as an Error? Should there be more just one way to do TS? Looks like an error for missing TS movement to me, regardless of vc issue being discussed.
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VCTS
Sept 5, 2020 3:26:02 GMT -5
Post by alstein on Sept 5, 2020 3:26:02 GMT -5
Can you stop the VCTS from happening at all by locking present WX? That might be a suggestion of what to do when you think there's a chance of lightning getting near the station.
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VCTS
Sept 5, 2020 9:43:51 GMT -5
Post by kukblue1 on Sept 5, 2020 9:43:51 GMT -5
Can you stop the VCTS from happening at all by locking present WX? That might be a suggestion of what to do when you think there's a chance of lightning getting near the station. You can jump the gun and put in TS if you know it's coming. I'm not sure you might be able to put in -ra but i don't think that will stop ALDARS from throwing in VCTS I think the only way to lock it in is put TS which if there is a line of storms coming I do. If I have a storm that is 10 miles north of me and moving N I think VCTS has a place for something like that but no one really seems to know how to handle the remarks for VCTS Oh and Not ever take out VCTS that is a big NO NO. Another example is a storm pops up 9 miles east moving E another good time just to let it go VCTS. Most observers will just claim they hear thunder and just change it in the 2 examples above to TS. Which even if you can is your TS really overhead. I know the 7900e says a thunderstorm begins when thunder is heard still doesn't mean that the thunderstorm has to be overhead or within 5 miles does it? It's still a Thunderstorm you still hear thunder it's just vicinity. I think some people have this notion that a VCTS is not a TS when that's not the case. Hell I can sometimes hear thunder from a storm 15 miles away if it's big enough I guess what i'm asking or saying is Just because you hear Thunder does it automatically make it within 5 miles?
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VCTS
Sept 5, 2020 11:18:22 GMT -5
Post by hlsto2 on Sept 5, 2020 11:18:22 GMT -5
It would seem that if VCTS appears in present weather, with corresponding remarks entered by the human observer, that would indicate that the human observer doesn't agree that there is a thunderstorm in progress. Otherwise, some sort of TS remarks are in order. Entering TS VC seems quite passé ever since the FAA memo in 2016 instructing observers not to determine the distance to LTG strikes. faa cannot tell us we can't determine distance to ltg strikes. they are trained to talk to pilots...we are trained in meteorology. didn't we learn in grade school or junior high that sound travels at about 1100 fps? faa is in way over their heads. proof is the poorly written manual
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VCTS
Sept 5, 2020 11:21:58 GMT -5
Post by hlsto2 on Sept 5, 2020 11:21:58 GMT -5
We do it as follows when VCTS pops up. incorrectly or not. append CB to low cloud group. in rmks we put OCNL LTGIC W TS VC W MOV NE You don't use VC in LTG remarks? that remark locates the ltg within 5 miles and the TS 5-10 miles from the ap. OCNL LTGIC VC W TS VC W MOV NE
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VCTS
Sept 5, 2020 11:35:51 GMT -5
Post by hlsto2 on Sept 5, 2020 11:35:51 GMT -5
042038Z 26008KT 10SM TS SCT060CB OVC340 34/22 A3001 RMK AO2 TSE28B37 OCNL LTGIC VC NW TS VC NW T03440222 042038Z 26008KT 10SM TS SCT060CB OVC340 34/22 A3001 RMK AO2 TSE28B37 OCNL LTGIC VC NW TS VC NW T03440222 Today so the Observer changed it to TS the metar was the same also. Would this be counted as an Error? Should there be more just one way to do TS? Looks like an error for missing TS movement to me, regardless of vc issue being discussed. our contractor instructs us to remove VCTS...input TS in present wx and input TS VC in remarks. which technically incorrect. I see a number of sites that work with VCTS and input TS VC or VCTS in remarks. this is techically correct.
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VCTS
Sept 7, 2020 19:05:49 GMT -5
Post by kukblue1 on Sept 7, 2020 19:05:49 GMT -5
I agree but the FAA sent out the rules to the contractors who sent them to the supervisors. Like kukublue I have seen many ways to encode all the BS that ALDARS puts out. Bottom line is ALDARS Sucks. IMO its fraud to force us to have our initials on an observation that is incorrect but "deemed" correct in order to give legitimacy to a computer program. To my knowledge there is no universal way to do it. If there is please post it. The way I do it is the way I was told by my contractor who was told by the FAA. Just in the Last 2 days. 24005KT 10SM -TSRA FEW008 SCT035CB OVC095 21/20 A2987 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT ALQDS RAB28 SLP110 OCNL LTGICCG VC SE-SW TS VC SE-SW MOV E P0002 60035 T02110200 50002 6SM VCTS -RA BR SCT008CB SCT046 BKN070 OVC140 16/16 A2986 RMK AO2 PK WND 15029/0919 LTG DSNT SE RAB03 TSB01E30 VCTS E-S MOV SE P0012 T01610156 10SM VCTS SCT033CB BKN090 BKN150 26/22 A2986 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT NE RAB15E26 CB N-E MOV E CB DSNT SW-NW P0000 T02560217 6SM VCTS RA BR FEW080CB BKN120 OVC200 23/22 A3013 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT SW AND W RAB2358 TSE09 OCNL LTGICCCCA VC SW TS VC SW MOV W I just won't ever use VCTS There seem to be no good examples how to do this
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Post by TCU 2U2 on Sept 8, 2020 6:29:14 GMT -5
I agree but the FAA sent out the rules to the contractors who sent them to the supervisors. Like kukublue I have seen many ways to encode all the BS that ALDARS puts out. Bottom line is ALDARS Sucks. IMO its fraud to force us to have our initials on an observation that is incorrect but "deemed" correct in order to give legitimacy to a computer program. To my knowledge there is no universal way to do it. If there is please post it. The way I do it is the way I was told by my contractor who was told by the FAA. Just in the Last 2 days. 24005KT 10SM -TSRA FEW008 SCT035CB OVC095 21/20 A2987 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT ALQDS RAB28 SLP110 OCNL LTGICCG VC SE-SW TS VC SE-SW MOV E P0002 60035 T02110200 50002 6SM VCTS -RA BR SCT008CB SCT046 BKN070 OVC140 16/16 A2986 RMK AO2 PK WND 15029/0919 LTG DSNT SE RAB03 TSB01E30 VCTS E-S MOV SE P0012 T01610156 10SM VCTS SCT033CB BKN090 BKN150 26/22 A2986 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT NE RAB15E26 CB N-E MOV E CB DSNT SW-NW P0000 T02560217 6SM VCTS RA BR FEW080CB BKN120 OVC200 23/22 A3013 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT SW AND W RAB2358 TSE09 OCNL LTGICCCCA VC SW TS VC SW MOV W I just won't ever use VCTS There seem to be no good examples how to do this When and why would you ever use VCTS in present weather? TS should be the only entry for the identification of thunder in present weather by a human observer. IF ALDARS reports VCTS, and you agree there is thunder occurring, then change the VCTS to TS and proceed with required sky condition (CB identification) & remarks (LTG frequency, type and location & TS location and movement). btw - this is the only time the FAA permits the observer from changing an ALDARS entry (VCTS in present weather) to a manual entry (TS in present weather)
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VCTS
Sept 8, 2020 13:17:48 GMT -5
Post by kukblue1 on Sept 8, 2020 13:17:48 GMT -5
I Think there is a place for it. During the day Clear skies or mostly Clear. A storm blows up about 9 miles away not a very big storm but enough to trigger VCTS in Asos. You can't see LTG cause sun is out. Don't hear thunder as storm isn't all that big or because of no clouds the sound isn't really reflecting your way. I see a place for VCTS
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VCTS
Sept 8, 2020 16:03:19 GMT -5
Post by kukblue1 on Sept 8, 2020 16:03:19 GMT -5
I agree with you. VCTS with no remarks and the 79000e kind of does say that seems incorrect to me. If you have a VCTS within 10 miles you have something going on. I'm ok with CB W if the storm is west I'm ok with TS VC W. Either way is ok with no LTG remarks if it's during the day and you can't see LTG. If you can see LTG and you feel the storm is 10 miles away then the VC remarks like above seem like the way it should be handled. There is even an example in the book for VC LTG but not one for TS? I feel VCTS with no remarks of any kind is just being lazy. That is just my option though not saying it's right or wrong but the powers to be need to make it clearer on what is acceptable for VCTS if they want us to use this ALDARS like it should be used. If everyone is just going to change it to TS any many many many due then what is the point of ALDARS in the first place?
I would like to also add that there are times where i can hear Thunder from a storm that is 15-20 miles away? Really depends on size of storm and air conditions. Is it TS then can you really call it within 5 miles when you look at radar or TV news and it's clearly 15-20 miles away?
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Post by hlsto2 on Sept 8, 2020 16:34:45 GMT -5
I agree with you. VCTS with no remarks and the 79000e kind of does say that seems incorrect to me. If you have a VCTS within 10 miles you have something going on. I'm ok with CB W if the storm is west I'm ok with TS VC W. Either way is ok with no LTG remarks if it's during the day and you can't see LTG. If you can see LTG and you feel the storm is 10 miles away then the VC remarks like above seem like the way it should be handled. There is even an example in the book for VC LTG but not one for TS? I feel VCTS with no remarks of any kind is just being lazy. That is just my option though not saying it's right or wrong but the powers to be need to make it clearer on what is acceptable for VCTS if they want us to use this ALDARS like it should be used. If everyone is just going to change it to TS any many many many due then what is the point of ALDARS in the first place? I would like to also add that there are times where i can hear Thunder from a storm that is 15-20 miles away? Really depends on size of storm and air conditions. Is it TS then can you really call it within 5 miles when you look at radar or TV news and it's clearly 15-20 miles away? 7900 9.7.a. says to enter weather beyond 10 miles in remarks. no TS in present weather...TS DSNT SE MOV E in remarks.
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auto
New Member
Posts: 24
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VCTS
Sept 8, 2020 22:40:16 GMT -5
Post by auto on Sept 8, 2020 22:40:16 GMT -5
I would like to also add that there are times where i can hear Thunder from a storm that is 15-20 miles away? Really depends on size of storm and air conditions. Is it TS then can you really call it within 5 miles when you look at radar or TV news and it's clearly 15-20 miles away? 7900 9.7.a. says to enter weather beyond 10 miles in remarks. no TS in present weather...TS DSNT SE MOV E in remarks. At my station when you hear thunder that is clearly from beyond 10 miles, TS gets reported in present wx. CB is not appended to the layer. RMK example as follows: OCNL LTGIC DSNT W TS DSNT W MOV E.
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VCTS
Sept 9, 2020 8:45:22 GMT -5
Post by TCU 2U2 on Sept 9, 2020 8:45:22 GMT -5
I agree with you. VCTS with no remarks and the 79000e kind of does say that seems incorrect to me. If you have a VCTS within 10 miles you have something going on. I'm ok with CB W if the storm is west I'm ok with TS VC W. Either way is ok with no LTG remarks if it's during the day and you can't see LTG. If you can see LTG and you feel the storm is 10 miles away then the VC remarks like above seem like the way it should be handled. There is even an example in the book for VC LTG but not one for TS? I feel VCTS with no remarks of any kind is just being lazy. That is just my option though not saying it's right or wrong but the powers to be need to make it clearer on what is acceptable for VCTS if they want us to use this ALDARS like it should be used. If everyone is just going to change it to TS any many many many due then what is the point of ALDARS in the first place? I would like to also add that there are times where i can hear Thunder from a storm that is 15-20 miles away? Really depends on size of storm and air conditions. Is it TS then can you really call it within 5 miles when you look at radar or TV news and it's clearly 15-20 miles away? 7900 9.7.a. says to enter weather beyond 10 miles in remarks. no TS in present weather...TS DSNT SE MOV E in remarks. TS is a descriptor.
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VCTS
Sept 9, 2020 9:29:21 GMT -5
Post by kukblue1 on Sept 9, 2020 9:29:21 GMT -5
7900 9.7.a. says to enter weather beyond 10 miles in remarks. no TS in present weather...TS DSNT SE MOV E in remarks. At my station when you hear thunder that is clearly from beyond 10 miles, TS gets reported in present wx. CB is not appended to the layer. RMK example as follows: OCNL LTGIC DSNT W TS DSNT W MOV E. So interesting how people have slightly different ways to do thing. I don't think something like that would fly at my station.
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VCTS
Sept 9, 2020 10:58:16 GMT -5
Post by weatherwatcher on Sept 9, 2020 10:58:16 GMT -5
I totally agree
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