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Post by sensored on Feb 29, 2024 6:43:39 GMT -5
Just a reminder to all vendors that will be negotiating with patco in March …There is no option for you not to bargain in good faith per law…Trying to opt out and or refusing to bargain is not an option for you…Patco has a point of contact for bargaining and you will not circumvent that person…”I’m going to call the president of patco, or I’m calling someone else in the organization “…is not acceptable…So bargain in good faith and don’t cause problems…
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 1, 2024 17:52:07 GMT -5
Actually Vendors do have a requirement to bargain in good faith but so does Patco. To that point there are vendors who have been trying to negotiate with Patco since the start of the contract and in fact Patco has not been responsive in starting the bargaining process, and thats why its March 1st and bargaining has really yet to start. So while it maybe the case with certain vendors, Patco too has yet to prove they also want to bargain in good faith.
Also to your quote on trying to call the president of Patco, its hard to understand what that means because they do not really have a president to call other than the people who run the Nuhhce parent union. Patco has no employees solely dedicated to it, rather they one part time worker who is their negotiator and who has other jobs representing different unions under Nuhhce. If they do claim to have a Patco president it is someone who is also certainly a Nuhhce employee. As I understand it to cut costs Nuhhce fired the only representative that was exclusively dedicated to Patco years ago, and thats why they have frustrated so many members in actually failing to support them. Moreover, the membership should ask Patco why it is that after collecting dues for so many years, that Patco has not yet contributed a cent toward helping save the CWO program when the FAA tried to cut it, and since the FAA is still trying to do that, the membership should ask them how they will help save the jobs in the program in the future? .
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Post by movedsouth on Mar 3, 2024 0:51:40 GMT -5
Actually Vendors do have a requirement to bargain in good faith but so does Patco. To that point there are vendors who have been trying to negotiate with Patco since the start of the contract and in fact Patco has not been responsive in starting the bargaining process, and thats why its March 1st and bargaining has really yet to start. So while it maybe the case with certain vendors, Patco too has yet to prove they also want to bargain in good faith. Also to your quote on trying to call the president of Patco, its hard to understand what that means because they do not really have a president to call other than the people who run the Nuhhce parent union. Patco has no employees solely dedicated to it, rather they one part time worker who is their negotiator and who has other jobs representing different unions under Nuhhce. If they do claim to have a Patco president it is someone who is also certainly a Nuhhce employee. As I understand it to cut costs Nuhhce fired the only representative that was exclusively dedicated to Patco years ago, and thats why they have frustrated so many members in actually failing to support them. Moreover, the membership should ask Patco why it is that after collecting dues for so many years, that Patco has not yet contributed a cent toward helping save the CWO program when the FAA tried to cut it, and since the FAA is still trying to do that, the membership should ask them how they will help save the jobs in the program in the future? . Your ignorance is beyond belief. Try reading at least some of the similar posts and rebuttals posted on this website before you spout off your mouth. No "dedicated to PATCO" representative has been "fired" by NUHHCE or anyone else - in more than 30 years that I'm familiar with the activity of PATCO. The faa needs to stop spreading steer manure and stop illegally interfering with union organization and negotiation. The faa must stop threatening contractors - of which I have strong suspicion based on observation, not proof. As for PATCO's alleged role in preserving the CWO program: this has also been discussed for years on this Forum. The role of the union is to negotiate for pay, benefits, and labor conditions with the contractors. PATCO, while having an interest in the continuance of the program, has no influence or leverage with the faa. The organization that does directly influence the continuance of the program is the U.S. Contract Weather Observer's Association - which keeps a lobbying firm under contract for contact with Congress as well as organizing direct lobbying by members. Different roles. I support both and urge all of us to do the same. You don't like PATCO? We ARE the union - get off your butt and get involved. V.P. Rich Perez will listen to you, so will our negotiator Kathleen Carr.
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 3, 2024 16:06:35 GMT -5
Sorry my friend if you have 30 years experience you are a very slow learner! In fact just ask Jerry Tuso about being fired - the last real dedicated rep - for costing them too much. Then they brought in the Neimeiser's who as I heard it paid money to buy into Patco. Sam was a nice guy but kinda a disaster as a negotiator. Then after they got rid of them they threw poor Jodi Blue -the secretary- under the bus just after her husband died from Covid and she suddenly was forced to negotiated contracts for the first time. That was extremely uncaring and harsh for the Nuchhe bosses to have done,, As I understand it if some Vendors did not walk her through how negotiations there would have been no raise that year! She quit shortly thereafter and they then turned in over to a contracted attorney Lance Geren who they had to pay an attorneys fee $ to every time they wanted to talk to him. Any surprise few if any grievances got settled under him? Now they bring on Kathleen who might mean well but is at most a part time Patco person.
But whats truly laughable is what you say about a Union not being responsible for keeping its workers jobs, because along with increasing wages, saving jobs is among the most important union function. It keeps workers working and also benefits the union in continuing to collect dues. And btw Patco dont have to have leverage with the FAA . What they have to do is to lobby Congress like the Vendor coalition and its successor the USCWOA does, and who deserve membership dues just as much as the union for keeping CWO jobs. Why Patco dont help with that is beyond my comprehension? But since you obviously think what I am saying is not credible, well how about this passage from the Economic Policy Institute about the benefit of unions during the pandemic:
..."Second, unions saved jobs. My estimates suggest job losses were 2,000 jobs per month lower for union members than nonunion members during the first six months of the pandemic when the economy was suffering most. Even as the economy started to recover over the subsequent 16 months, unions continued to preserve an average of 1,700 jobs per month. During the 22 months I analyzed in my paper, unions saved just over 40,000 jobs, relative to what happened to workers in nonunion establishments." ...
Finally if you did not already know it Patco is credited by labor scholars as having helped put the nail in the coffin of the US Labor movement with their infamous 1981 ATC strike, just look it up youself,:
..."Reagan’s crushing of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) was a turning point in labor relations, inspiring corporate America to fight unions harder than at any time since the 1930s. Within a year of the PATCO debacle, a number of major corporations provoked walkouts by their own workers, which the corporations then used as a pretext to fire them and bust their unions. By the late 1980s, unions had all but abandoned the strike and thereby lost a key component of worker power. Today, 40 years after the PATCO strike, only 6.3 percent of private sector workers are unionized, roughly one-third of the figure in 1981. As unions declined, inequality has grown more extreme"...
Now we will see how it all goes from here but its for everyone themselves to decide if they are in good hands with Patco and its one part time employee dedicated to negotiations ....
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Post by movedsouth on Mar 7, 2024 4:29:48 GMT -5
Sorry my friend if you have 30 years experience you are a very slow learner! In fact just ask Jerry Tuso about being fired - the last real dedicated rep - for costing them too much. Then they brought in the Neimeiser's who as I heard it paid money to buy into Patco. Sam was a nice guy but kinda a disaster as a negotiator. Then after they got rid of them they threw poor Jodi Blue -the secretary- under the bus just after her husband died from Covid and she suddenly was forced to negotiated contracts for the first time. That was extremely uncaring and harsh for the Nuchhe bosses to have done,, As I understand it if some Vendors did not walk her through how negotiations there would have been no raise that year! She quit shortly thereafter and they then turned in over to a contracted attorney Lance Geren who they had to pay an attorneys fee $ to every time they wanted to talk to him. Any surprise few if any grievances got settled under him? Now they bring on Kathleen who might mean well but is at most a part time Patco person. But whats truly laughable is what you say about a Union not being responsible for keeping its workers jobs, because along with increasing wages, saving jobs is among the most important union function. It keeps workers working and also benefits the union in continuing to collect dues. And btw Patco dont have to have leverage with the FAA . What they have to do is to lobby Congress like the Vendor coalition and its successor the USCWOA does, and who deserve membership dues just as much as the union for keeping CWO jobs. Why Patco dont help with that is beyond my comprehension? But since you obviously think what I am saying is not credible, well how about this passage from the Economic Policy Institute about the benefit of unions during the pandemic: ..."Second, unions saved jobs. My estimates suggest job losses were 2,000 jobs per month lower for union members than nonunion members during the first six months of the pandemic when the economy was suffering most. Even as the economy started to recover over the subsequent 16 months, unions continued to preserve an average of 1,700 jobs per month. During the 22 months I analyzed in my paper, unions saved just over 40,000 jobs, relative to what happened to workers in nonunion establishments." ... Finally if you did not already know it Patco is credited by labor scholars as having helped put the nail in the coffin of the US Labor movement with their infamous 1981 ATC strike, just look it up youself,: ..."Reagan’s crushing of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) was a turning point in labor relations, inspiring corporate America to fight unions harder than at any time since the 1930s. Within a year of the PATCO debacle, a number of major corporations provoked walkouts by their own workers, which the corporations then used as a pretext to fire them and bust their unions. By the late 1980s, unions had all but abandoned the strike and thereby lost a key component of worker power. Today, 40 years after the PATCO strike, only 6.3 percent of private sector workers are unionized, roughly one-third of the figure in 1981. As unions declined, inequality has grown more extreme"... Now we will see how it all goes from here but its for everyone themselves to decide if they are in good hands with Patco and its one part time employee dedicated to negotiations .... While I support your free speech, I gotta call bs on your distorted sense of history post Reagan. Yes, Reagan's busting of PATCO put the then out-of-reason union movement in its place. ATCs making more money than the President is certainly unreasonable! Your EPI quote has nothing to do with PATCO's lack of current involvement in keeping the CWO program going - unions "saving jobs" appears to be a googled search criteria and its disengenuous result has only contributed to my impression of your ignorance. I'm very familiar with the history of Jerry Tuso, Jack Seddon, the Neimeisers (all friends); and more recently Henry Santana and Kathleen Carr. We are rebuilding after the loss of records post-Jodie Blue. Could PATCO join in the lobbying effort to keep our program open? Perhaps. PATCO's first task now is new CBAs. Two things to remember: WE ARE THE UNION. and, UNITED WE BARGAIN, DIVIDED WE BEG. |
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 7, 2024 11:58:52 GMT -5
So you support Unions as long as they dont cross Reagan? OK... Regards the ignorance invective you seem to like to toss around well last I checked the AFL-CIO says "Unions are teams of individuals coming together to guarantee the things you care about like decent wages, affordable health care,..... job security, ..... safe and respectful workplaces, and fair scheduling." I urge you to go check their web site unless of course you think the AFL-CIO is being "disingenuous" or ignorant.
Yes I believe in a strong labor movement too, especially the one that Woody Guthrie sung about, but your unity plea mean little if the union jobs go away and go away because your union is not supporting your job security. So if Patco is not going fight for union jobs than union members have all the right to push them to do so, so how about Patco doing their share to support the USCWOA? You know given the problems with financial resources that the USCWOA is experiencing -who is the actual organization that fights for weather observers jobs -coupled with the fact that Patco enjoys the 6 figure dues amount they receive from the CWO program annually, getting Patco to support the USCWOA just might be the ethical and right thing to do!
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Post by movedsouth on Mar 10, 2024 3:52:04 GMT -5
So you support Unions as long as they dont cross Reagan? OK... Regards the ignorance invective you seem to like to toss around well last I checked the AFL-CIO says "Unions are teams of individuals coming together to guarantee the things you care about like decent wages, affordable health care,..... job security, ..... safe and respectful workplaces, and fair scheduling." I urge you to go check their web site unless of course you think the AFL-CIO is being "disingenuous" or ignorant. Yes I believe in a strong labor movement too, especially the one that Woody Guthrie sung about, but your unity plea mean little if the union jobs go away and go away because your union is not supporting your job security. So if Patco is not going fight for union jobs than union members have all the right to push them to do so, so how about Patco doing their share to support the USCWOA? You know given the problems with financial resources that the USCWOA is experiencing -who is the actual organization that fights for weather observers jobs -coupled with the fact that Patco enjoys the 6 figure dues amount they receive from the CWO program annually, getting Patco to support the USCWOA just might be the ethical and right thing to do! The AFL-CIO stance on "job security" references the vertical relationship between union employee and employer - it says nothing about union pressure on congress to keep government programs going. Having said that, plenty of unions take an active role in lobbying for more funding for their programs - and by logical extension program security (teacher's and government employee unions in particular come to mind). Could PATCO do more? Could they support the USCWOA? At least join forces? Sure - and I support that idea. I do not support stupid bashing of people trying to help us when your own lack of direct involvement could make the difference. It was my criticism of another sniper who responded to my arguments by running for PATCO Board of Directors - and has become a valuable member of our team.
I stand by my statement that CBAs are PATCO's first priority - many of us have been without them for several years, and fingerpointing by the FAA, the contractors, and PATCO has been very unproductive.
My accusation of ignorance and your yanking statements out of context is based on your writing! I am a capitalist, not a communist (Woody Guthrie), who also understands the tendency of businesses (and governments!) to take advantage of their employees - thus the need for labor unions. I do not support unions taking control of management or bankrupting employers - businesses have to make a profit and governments have to keep costs within reason. I am also a wordsmith by training and have a strong dislike of writing by persons who mishandle - either through ignorance or prevarication or invective - arguments that could be discussed logically and reasonably for positive result. Having lived and worked through the Carter and Reagan years and seen what differences public policy could make, I support wholeheartedly Reaganomics. Reagan was good for unions too, because he made the pie bigger! As for PATCO's finances and capabilities - I suggest you speak with Rich Perez and/or Kathleen Carr. Rich works at LaGuardia (KLGA) as a CWO. KLGA contact info can be found on the USCWOA website directory. Get involved please.
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 10, 2024 15:25:59 GMT -5
I am not sure you really have the knowledge to be able to comment on anyones involvement in this matter especially since your comments are so replete with contradictions.
So Woody the union man: bad, and Reagan who did his utmost to destroy the union movement in America; good. Hmmm, I would suggest you take a history course my friend before offering opinions that your own ideology contradicts... I realize fact checking and doing research might not be consistent with your self assessment as being a great wordsmith lol, but you might consider doing some next time before you start hammering away at the key board. In fact in 1980 when Reagan was elected the percentage of unionized workers was roughly 23% now its just above 10%. In fact according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (I apologize if you think they are commies too) the data indicate that the number of employed wage and salary workers belonging to labor unions fell from 20.1 million in 1980 to 17 .4 million in 1984-a loss of 2.7
million members and that corresponds to Reagan's first term. Wow dude thats really quite a big pie the Gipper baked for union workers in America. Not that Clinton who followed him added any ice cream on top.
Finally given all your contradictions Mr Wordsmith I would suggest that you do some self-reflection before bashing those concerned with saving CWO jobs who simply point out Patco's zero effort to lift a finger to help save them and especially before you label anyone or anything other than your own opinions as ignorant!
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Post by movedsouth on Mar 11, 2024 4:06:59 GMT -5
Dear Mr Thunderwind... your irrelevant statistics only point to your inability to understand what I've said; or, I'm convinced, understand what you yourself have written. Want my respect? I'm willing, but you can start with acting respectable and respectful. You haven't yet reviewed 20 years' worth of posts on this topic - or you would know nice tidbits like Jerry Tuso resigned (he was not fired) 3 times as he tried to retire and the union kept begging him to come back. Or that the false allegations that the Neimeisers bought their positions being debunked... There is much more to the story. BTW, I also have posted as toofarnorth and northwx in years gone by and have been involved in union activity for more than 26 years - much of that with PATCO. SEIU was a joke, but they got us pay raises. We were with Laborer's for awhile, but they proved to be too expensive - they were always there for us, but they cost a lot more than they got us. PATCO has been great until the last three years with Henry Santana having health issues and the faa playing hardball with the contractors... Help us rebuild Mr. Mightywind.
No, I have not contradicted myself - you have failed to understand what I have said because of your own bias. Woody the communist I despise - his union work was only questionable because of his thirst for power. Reagan - a member of the screen actors guild (a union...) - did not try to destroy the union movement, he only sought to restrain its excesses. Reaganomics made for enough growth that businesses (and governments) were able to grant pay and benefit raises larger than the inflation rate at the time - so well that the economy continued to grow into Bill Clinton's second year. During that time we felt HOPE that we could better our lives and were not slaves to some evil conspiracy to keep us bound to never ending poverty and debt. Why did the percentage of unionized workers fall? Perhaps the unions were asking too much of their workers? - not likely, and I do not have all the answers for all the changes, or for an economy shifted toward information tech and away from manufacturing (where most of the union jobs were). Reagan's policies allowed companies to shift many jobs overseas where labor was cheaper - the free market freed, to the frustration of unions who had driven costs too high to remain competitive. Clinton sealed the deal with the shift to I.T. and forcing more outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. Trump brought a lot of those jobs home. Is there hope that we can again dream the American dream of having enough? I think so - but it won't come with left-wing economics or by labor unions bankrupting businesses. I want fairness. I want a bigger pie that is divided fairly amongst all who work for their share. I want greed restrained so that when I go to the store I don't feel like I'm being ripped off. Get your butt (and brain, hopefully) in gear and get involved. Stop expecting life to be spoon-fed to you (that is an assumption - based on the type of bellyaching I'm reading from you). You can have last word comrade - I'm away from my computer for the next week. Just don't prevaricate too much in my absence - no one is persuaded by, or respects, bs. ...I should add, let's both try to be civil...
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 12, 2024 13:54:57 GMT -5
I’m with you in keeping it civil for spats within the brotherhood, and I can let the invectives you have hurled my way pass and
even live with your disdain when confronted with the actual facts that demonstrate the folly in your assertions and
ideological confusion, in exalting Reagan as a friend of unions. BTW, I find that especially ironic because in 1980 Patco supported Reagan with generous financial contribution in his presidential campaign, and that was one of the reasons they thought he would never fire them when they went on their illegal strike. wrong..
But that said, dude being pro union and hating on Woody is “hardcore”. I am not sure if your definition of communists would go much beyond that of Archie Bunker, but your description of Guthrie as some power mad communist is hilarious and demonstrates an ignorance of the workers movement from the 1920s through 1950s. To hate on the person who wrote "This Land is My Land" (so much for patriotism lol) dozens of classic standards and many a good union song, who was a major influence on some of the most prolific musicians and songwriters of the past 60 years like Dylan & Spingsteen, who was beloved by Johnny Cash, is a bit extreme dont you think for someone preaching the Union gospel? I do hope the fact that he wrote on his his guitar “this machine kills fascist” is not something any politicians you would endorse would feel threatened by.
Also to be clear I know exactly what happened to Tuso, the Neimeisers and Jodi Blue and dont need to verify what I know by the chats on this forum. And there are enough of us who know the history to witness whats gone down to verify that.
So lets get back to the main thrust of my posts on Patco, (And I am willing to share my math) although they make at least 300K per year which is probably a conservative estimate from the CWO program they have never spent a cent on helping to secure CWO jobs. The fact that presently they only have one part time employee Ms Carr, (who does other Nuchhe work) and R Perez's ceremonial position, dont explain why they cant contribute a penny to help lobby to keep the CWO program open.
To conclude the USCWOA is in big financial trouble and may not survive. At present the FAA is still trying to close the CWO program using “new technology” which in the age of AI may be a real threat. So absent the USCWOA what is it going take for Patco to wake up to these basic facts and start spending some of those hard earned union dues of its members, to perhaps do for them the most important thing of all: protect their jobs. And finally here is a suggestion that you may even like given your support of Unions, take a minute and listen to Billy Bragg (also Woody influenced) "There is Power in a Union".
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Post by whatthethundersaid on Mar 12, 2024 13:55:34 GMT -5
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Post by alstein on Mar 12, 2024 21:24:52 GMT -5
Given a choice between USCWOA and PATCO, I'd rather see USCWOA survive. Better to have what we have now, as shit of a deal as it is, than the jobs just go away in a year or two.
the USCWOA has been effective at least. PATCO hasn't felt all that effective, at least when dealing with IBEX where they got taken to the cleaners.
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Post by movedsouth on Mar 16, 2024 5:15:00 GMT -5
Given a choice between USCWOA and PATCO, I'd rather see USCWOA survive. Better to have what we have now, as shit of a deal as it is, than the jobs just go away in a year or two. the USCWOA has been effective at least. PATCO hasn't felt all that effective, at least when dealing with IBEX where they got taken to the cleaners. Howdy Al, Ibex crapped on everyone they could when Steve knew he wanted out - he moved a lot of his personal assets overseas too. Steve wasn't like that, just cheap, when I worked for them late 1990s and another contract 5 years later. That they did it to PATCO too is not surprising. Right now, we're waiting on a response from PATCO on our CBA negotiations - over a month - which doesn't look good. Everyone is hurting because of bidenomics... |
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