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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 2, 2016 15:07:30 GMT -5
So I guess NWS called today to find out why ALDARS was being turned off. So they in turned called Washington DC. Washington DC in turn called our station and sent an email saying ALDARS can not be turned off. The sent SWO an email with the Memorandum that was dated Sept 24,2013. Asos 3.0 update WHAT is going on? Isn't there another Memorandum saying that we can turn it off. NWS and Washington last winter told us that we don't have to do snow depth if we didn't get more then precipitation in 6 hours. I tried to tell them they were wrong but gave up on that fight as we don't get much snow as it is. Anyone help me with this one please.
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Post by skobie on Aug 2, 2016 15:31:30 GMT -5
It can be turned off when unrepresentative. I believe there was a memorandum about it and I'm sure someone on here can come up with it and post it please. The problem is, it's almost always unrepresentative as soon as it starts spitting out data (b/c it does not indicate type of lightning or it's just plan wrong). The NWS should mind their own business since they threw away their responsibility to weather observing years ago IMO.
skobie
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Post by toofarnorth on Aug 2, 2016 15:43:46 GMT -5
7900.5c paragraphs: ALDARS - 1.8a & b, 2.4, 2.5a, 3.11, 6.5 NWS doesn't want to see the $ for what is really a design flaw. Snow depth 4/sss 14.51, including the change made 2/01/13 deleting the requirement than more than a trace of precip had to have fallen in the previous 6 hours - in other words, if there is more than a trace (1/2 inch or more) on the ground, 4/sss must be reported on the 6-hourly obs (0000, 0600, 1200, 1800 Zulu time). Hope this helps, but there are some in DC who really want us to go away and are determined to interfere with our work so they can say LAWRS is as good as us or that we don't do anything...
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Post by rich on Aug 2, 2016 15:58:55 GMT -5
From the memo Skobie mentions:
LAWRS observers and contract weather observers are still responsible for the backup of ASOS in accordance with FAA Order 7900.5, Chapter 6, Table 6-6, "Augmented sites with an automated system with SPECI capability or sites with an automated system without SPECI capability with ALDARS: Thunderstorm repotting is produced via backup if ALDARS should become inoperative, or is unrepresentative.
From the 7900.5C:
6.5. Procedures for Providing Backup Information...........For nonrepresentative data, the observer may turn report processing off (automated system with SPECI capability) or set the channel out of service (automated system without SPECI capability)...
What's the problem?
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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 2, 2016 16:13:30 GMT -5
They want it left on all the time never to turn it off. Washington called said we were breaking the law. So I guess we are going to start having 2 LTG remarks. So it will look like this. LTG DSNT W OCNL LTGICCG DSNT W since FRQ and Type are required. So this is what I'm not understanding If it's required themn why not just turn it off. I guess I could edit out remarks but how would that be any different then turning it off. I guess OHD will be LTG ALQDS FRQ LTGICCG OHD. Crazy.
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Post by rich on Aug 2, 2016 16:21:35 GMT -5
Washington called said we were breaking the law. What law?
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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 2, 2016 16:27:54 GMT -5
Law might not be the word i'm looking for but SWO said they were very upset we were turning it off and it should never be turned off ever. Even though 14.29a say When Lightning is observed at a manual location, the frequency and location must be reported. Type of lightning must be reported, if known. So doesn't that automatically make AlDARS unrepresentative since it doesn't do Frequency and type isn't that hard to figure out. I'm not trying to throw NWS or anyone under the bus us scratching my head on why this is an issue to begin with. It's always unrepresentative and there for should be turned off end of story. Is there a site with weather observers out there that have it turned on. ANYONE?
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 2, 2016 16:54:56 GMT -5
7900.5C 12/21/2012...page 17...3.11.
"when the observer has reason to believe that the accuracy or validity of indications from meteorological sensors is questionable, the use of such equipment should be discontinued until necessary corrective maintenance has been accomplished."
maintenance is not done because aLDARS does what it does. 3 entries. LTG DSNT (dir) (10-30 miles distant) TS VCTS.
ALDARS does not report lightning within 10 miles of AP. It generally only detects/reports CG strikes.
LAWRS generally lets ALDARS handle tstm events....no additional remarks.
CWO required:
ltg frequency and type. observers can see lightning WELL beyond 30 miles. CB/TS location and movement.
in short...ALDARS is not valid. for example, if LTG DSNT N is the only ALDARS remark. CWO required remarks: FRQ LTGICCG DSNT N CB DSNT N MOV S as an example.
so...according to the quoted 7900 pargraph...ALDARS becomes invalid for CWO requirements as soon as it enters LTG DSNT (dir)
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 2, 2016 16:57:35 GMT -5
Law might not be the word i'm looking for but SWO said they were very upset we were turning it off and it should never be turned off ever. Even though 14.29a say When Lightning is observed at a manual location, the frequency and location must be reported. Type of lightning must be reported, if known. So doesn't that automatically make AlDARS unrepresentative since it doesn't do Frequency and type isn't that hard to figure out. I'm not trying to throw NWS or anyone under the bus us scratching my head on why this is an issue to begin with. It's always unrepresentative and there for should be turned off end of story. Is there a site with weather observers out there that have it turned on. ANYONE? if you leave ALDARS on during a TS event you will get burned. voice of experience here.
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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 2, 2016 18:23:53 GMT -5
On a side question is the NWS ever going to turn maintenance over to the FAA? They have the testing. How much longer before the turn fixing ASOS over to the FAA?
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Post by wxornot on Aug 2, 2016 18:47:57 GMT -5
If there are storms in the area I will disable ALDARS, period. During TS to do my job properly I don't have time to dick around/change erroneous remarks and refuse to do so. I have been in this business for over 20 yrs at various locations across the Country. The degradation of the Contract weather program over those years has been criminal. There will be no end to the faa's pursuit to close the program completely and will go to any extreme to do so. I myself will not cower or be intimidated by the incompetence of the faa/nws and will continue to do my job to the best of my ability so ALDARS will be disabled when storms are or expected in the area.
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Post by skobie on Aug 2, 2016 23:34:46 GMT -5
Who exactly called your station from DC anyway, kukblue? I would certainly get their name, title, and #. They should be talking to your contractor and not the SWO at your station directly (you or whoever that is). Don't they know the chain of command that they have set up? If we went right to one of them in DC, there would be a lot of people between myself and the upper management of FAA that would be upset (from experience). If I didn't know any better, It almost sounds like someone is messing with you guys. How would they even know the sensor was off anyway. Some rat at NWS tells them? Get the persons credentials and send a detailed email to your contractor and tell FAA types not to bother you. Seriously. You or your SWO don't get paid to deal with them directly and they should not be harassing you guys, especially when they don't know what their talking about (FAA or your local NWS either, apparently). And shame on the local NWS for shaking you guys down as they should know better, unlike the FAA who are a bunch of clueless bureaucrats in DC as we all know (see your local SRM for proof of that). Just keep doing what we know is correct in the meantime as your initials are on the obs, not theirs.
skobie
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Post by kukblue1 on Aug 3, 2016 10:31:25 GMT -5
I agree 100 percent with you that they should be dealing with contractor and not us directly. Are we going to be the only site with weather observers that have both Aldars remarks and manual remarks all because NWS wants ALDARS on at all time.
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Post by hlsto2 on Aug 3, 2016 11:11:31 GMT -5
as long as it is MY initials that are at the end of EVERY metar/speci...I am going to operate ASOS as I see fit.
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Post by tornado on Aug 3, 2016 12:34:08 GMT -5
Are we going to be the only site with weather observers that have both Aldars remarks and manual remarks all because NWS wants ALDARS on at all time. In the words of a former contractor, "Our contract is with the FAA, not the NWS."
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